1. First, could you please
introduce your book briefly. What was your motivation to write this book, and
what is your main argument in it?
My motivation was to present a
picture of the world and the distribution of income and economic power in it
during the era of globalization. This is a very remarkable period in terms of
its effects on income distribution, not solely within countries but between
countries as well. It is probably the greatest reshuffle of global income positions
with people from formerly poorer countries going up in the global income
distribution since the Industrial revolution. I thought it was very important
to describe and analyze these changes.
Since the book deals with the
world, it is, if I may say so myself, “rich” in implications and messages. I
would single out three key arguments. First, for inequality within countries, I
argue that it follows the Kuznets waves of rising and decreasing inequality where
the increases are driven by the interaction of technological change and globalization.
Second, I argue that huge inequality
between countries’ mean incomes (or GDPs per capita) implies the existence of a
“citizenship rent”, an “unearned” income which depends on one’s chance of having
been born in a rich country as opposed to being born in a poor country. Migration
is an attempt by people from poor countries to appropriate that rent too. So
migration today should be seen to derive from globalization conducted under the
conditions of very uneven income levels among the countries. Third, I argue
that the effects of globalization will always be unequal. Even if everybody
gains, the gains will be perforce different as is the case with all dramatic political
and economic shifts. It is naïve to believe that everybody will benefit
equally. In addition, differences in gains, given that the world is politically
organized in nation-states, may produce political problems that can threaten
the sustainability of globalization.
2. Your argument about the causes
for rising inequality is so extensive and far-reaching. Mainstream economists
emphasize that technology plays the most important role, while you argue that
technology, opening and policy are all important and interdependent. Could you
explain how your argument is different from mainstream explanations?
The gist of my argument is
that the three generally considered the most important factors that increase inequality—globalization,
technological change and economic policy—can be distinguished conceptually but
cannot be broken apart in an empirical analysis. This is because they are
interrelated: openness to international trade and free movement of capital
affect policy decisions like the maximum tax rate that can be imposed on
capital; the type of technological change we witness is also affected by
globalization. I would like the explain this last point. Technological progress
is not an abstract thing that is unrelated to the real world. The types of innovations
that are actually implemented depend upon the prices of the factors of production
(capital and labor). And they in turn depend on whether there is globalization
or not. Globalization has made it possible to produce many new goods, from laptop
computers to smart phones, using the cheap labor in Asia. Without
globalization, these goods would not have been produced in such a particular
shape and form because the cost of labor would have been higher. The existence
of globalization influences the type of technological progress that is
profitable and that therefore gets implemented.
Because of the interdependency
of globalization, technological change and economic policy, if we were theoretically
to assume that one of these three, say globalization, does not hold, the other
two may not hold either. Thus a neat decomposition into globalization, technological
change and policy with one accounting for x percent of inequality change, the
other for y, and the third for 1-x-y, simply cannot be done.
3. Populist politicians blame
globalization for rising inequality and many people accept it. How true do you
think is this argument? It seems like that people believe globalization or
policy could be controlled to some extent, while technology is comparatively
exogenous, and that’s why technology is not political concern. In that sense,
isn’t technology qualitatively different from other factors?
I agree that in principle technology
seems exogenous. I emphasize the word “seems” because in reality, as I already
mentioned, the choice between different technological innovations is made based on the actual prices
and profitability of making such goods or services. Take the example of supersonic
passenger airplane. We have had the required technology for at least half a
century. But the use of this technology was always limited and after the crash
of Concorde (which had nothing to do with technology as such) no further
flights were undertaken. Why? Because supersonic passenger jets are not profitable.
We see on this example, and I think one
could find many others, that the technology that actually gets implemented depends
on the type of the political and economic system that we have and thus on the
prices of labor and capital. And globalization affects both of them. One type
of technology will be profitable with globalization, another type of technology
would be profitable without globalization.
4. The concept of Kuznets waves
is truly interesting. But I think that forces for these waves, up and down, could
be different historically between the first and second wave. (for example,
aging population is now a force to raise inequality, different from the past)
What could be the difference in these forces over history and why?
Yes, I agree that some of the
forces behind the first and the second modern Kuznets waves could be different.
Demography as you mention is one of them. Education is another. During the downswing phase of
the first Kuznets wave, which in rich
countries lasted from around the 1940s to the 1980s, expansion of education played
an equalizing role by reducing the wage gap between the more and less skilled
labor, The average number of years of education in the most advanced countries
increased from 6 or 7 to over 13. But
today the increase in education levels cannot play the same role simply because
most that can be done is go from an average of 13 years of education to say, an
average of 14 or 15. In a situation where most people are highly educated you cannot
expect to obtain big effects on inequality by making the additional small groups
better educated. Similarly, trade unions have had a large role in reducing inequality
in the past. But the new type of employment structure, away from factories and towards
services with much smaller size of units, makes unionization of workers more
difficult and hence the role of unions
and collective bargaining between employers and employee less important.
5. As to the prospects of inequality
in the US in the 21st century, you are concerned about a perfect
storm due to several factors such as rising capital share, correlation of high
labor and capital income, rising power of the rich and so on. You also write
that you are skeptical about redistribution and education. Although it is
extremely hard to predict the future, what could be the most plausible force to
possibly reduce inequality in the future in the US? In particular, you sound somewhat
politically pessimistic about the future of inequality in the US. But we saw
that so many people supported Sanders (and Corbyn), demanding equal distribution.
Do you think that there is no much hope for changes in politics for equal distribution
in the US? I mean, what kind of political efforts should be made by the
liberals and left for prosperity for all?
You are right that I am somewhat
pessimistic regarding the short-term prospects for the reduction of income and wealth inequality in the United States.
I am even more pessimistic now as we face the Trump administration (one should
remember that I wrote the book before Trump even began his run for the Republican
nomination). But over the medium term I
see at least two important factors that could check the increase of US inequality
and perhaps reverse it. The first is political one, reflected in, as you mentioned, the
support received by Bernie Sanders. I believe that in the next electoral cycle
anti-inequality policies advocated by Sanders may be expected to obtain the
support of many voters whether it is Sanders or somebody else who champions
them.
The second element is the gradual
erosion of large rents that have accrued to the entrepreneurs and capitalists
that have introduced new ideas and technologies as the new competitors emerge.
Here take the examples of Nokia and Blackberry that were the leaders in their respective
fields only to be displaced by new producers and then driven out of business. Similar
fate may befall other technological leaders. Its upshot would be the reduction
in large rents received and which
clearly increase inequality.
6. Recently, many people are
concerned about technological progress such as robot and artificial
intelligence could lead to very high unemployment and inequality. What do you
think of the shock of this technology to inequality? Opposite to this, you
present a possibility of technological change that favors low-skilled workers,
reducing inequality, (which reminds me of a recent model presented by Acemoglu.)
Could you give us more extensive explanation about it?
I would divide your question
and my answer into two parts. First, the fears of technological progress displacing all labor are, I think, exaggerated,
Such fears have been with us from the very first technological revolution two
hundred years ago. And while each change has substituted some labor and negatively
affected some occupations, overall it created more jobs. I do not see any reason why this may not happen again.
Second, I see some technological advances that indeed can reduce incomes of the
rich in developed economies and thus reduce inequality: doctors, accountants,
architects, designers, professors can be in many instances replaced by cheaper
labor working remotely in emerging market economies, This is indirectly pro-low
skill change because it reduces the gap between wages of highly skilled and low
skilled labor.
7. You say that, in the 21st
century, reduction in inequality in endowment such as assets and education will
be more effective than redistribution since taxing capital is harder with
globalization. I am not sure how feasible this is in reality. Probably you
believe that the power of the government has weakened significantly against
capital but the role of the government in terms of tax and government spending
was not so much reduced in reality in spite of globalization. What do you
think?
I think that there are areas like
the equalization of access to high quality education and deconcentration of
asset ownership, where the government can play a role unconstrained by
globalization. If you have a political will to help small investors by giving
them substantial tax benefits or if you help worker ownership of shares through
the so-called Employee Stock Ownership Plans (ESOPs), you can reduce the
concentration of income from capital and there is nothing that globalization can
do to help or made such a policy more difficult. So I think that in some policy
areas which have to do with distribution of income, governments can be more active
and interventionist regardless of globalization. In others, like taxation of capital or taxation
of high-skilled labor, globalization does place limits on what governments can
do.
8. You show that the recent
fall in global inequality is mainly owing to economic growth in Asia such as
China and India, while other developing countries in Africa are behind. Then we
can say that gains of globalization are not evenly distributed, not only within
a country but also in the global economy. What should be done to change this in
developing countries and in the global level?
Yes, the gains are not evenly
distributed and are unlikely ever to be. This is because globalization is a huge
and multifaceted development that is never going to affect everybody equally:
some will gain more, others will gain loss, and some might even lose in absolute
terms.
Regarding African countries, it
is a different and difficult question as to what they could do to benefit more
from globalization. I do not address this in my book. But if we look at the Asian
examples one could say that for Africa improvements in skills and greater incentives
to attract foreign capital should help. I know however that this is too general
to be really helpful and applicable to individual countries though.
9. In the book, you do not
discuss implications of inequality to growth much, but you say that the decline
in middle class led to changes in consumption pattern and social expenditure,
which may hamper growth. It could be consistent with studies that report that
inequality is bad to long-run economic growth. What do you think of the effect
of inequality on growth?
This is a huge area of
research that was very active in the 1990s but has since gone into a decline because
the results from the 1990s were inconclusive, The key relationship between
income inequality and growth was all over
the place: from the authors who argued that inequality is good for growth to
those that found no relationship and those that found a negative relationship.
I think that we are now on the verge of another wave of such studies because of
much better data that we currently have. In the past the studies were very rough:
they just looked at the growth rate of GDP and Gini or another aggregate inequality
index. But now we have detailed micro (household-level) data for a number of
countries and over a long period of time. In a recent
paper that I wrote with Roy van der Weide from the World Bank, we looked at different types of inequalities (among the
poor, the middle class and the rich) and how they affect income growth at different
parts of distribution. It is a much richer way to look at the question. And we
are not the only ones who on such much richer data find that higher inequality reduces
subsequent growth rate of the poor.
10. Now, let’s talk about globalization,
and Brexit and election of Trump in view of your book. These events made your ‘elephant
curve’ so famous. Do you believe that those are caused by the revolt by losers
in globalization in developed countries? It should be noted that these events
occurred in Anglo-Saxon countries where the role income distribution is limited,
while inequality has risen higher. Then, could the future of inequality and
globalization in other developed countries be different from Anglo-Saxon
countries?
The low growth of middle class
incomes in rich countries that is highlighted by the “elephant chart” is not
the only reason behind the results of the Brexit referendum and the election of
Donald Trump but I do think, based on the empirical evidence regarding the votes,
that it played a role. It would be of course wrong to say that it alone explains
the outcome, There are other reasons. But some of them too relate to globalization
like for example migration fears which played a role in the United Kingdom Leave
campaign.
10. What do you think of
criticism against the elephant curve by a paper at Resolution Foundation that population
growth in China played an important role? (with constant population, the result
seems somewhat different)
The key point that the Resolution
Foundation paper tries to make is that different rich countries had different
outcomes when it comes to their middle class income growth---so that the dip
around the 80-85th global percentile, where the rich countries’ middle
class are, is not universal. But while the middle classes of different countries
did indeed experience different income growth (e.g. UK middle class incomes grew faster than American and German) they all still
grew much slower than incomes in Asia.
And it is the gap between these two that gives the “elephant chart” its distinct
shape. And in particular, the middle class incomes in three largest rich
counties (US, Japan and Germany) grew very little or almost not at all.
China of course plays a key role
in the “elephant chart”. The chart looks different if you take China out, but
other than highlighting the extraordinary importance of China, it is not clear to
me that that makes much sense. Finally, when you keep the positions of the
underlying country fractiles at their 1988 positions in global income
distribution (thus effectively controlling for population dynamics), you still get
the elephant-alike chart with the highest growth rates around the middle and the
top of the global income distribution.